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jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29094
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


quote:

rescue1 wrote:
Also I'm yet to see a turbo time that has the same connections as the auto run units I install in emergency vehicles that shut the motor down if somebody tries to drive off.



As stated above, you shouldn't leave the vehicle idling when you're not in it. It's illegal.



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15/Jul/2009, 9:46 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
dronus Profile
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Date Registered: 08-2008
Location: Adelaide
TOTAL POSTS: 541
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


quote:

dronus wrote:

I thought that the pump that runs when you shut down your engine pumps coolant (or oil) around the turbo, doing the same thing?




Uh oh, im quoting myself quoting myself,quoting myself which might seem kinky at first, but im sure its ok in most states and at least the northern territory emoticon

Doesn't this do the same thing as a turbo timer?


X-Trail turbo pump thread

I have got into the habit of driving alot slower when i am approaching my destination (through the carpark, or down the last road) to slow everything down but i have also noticed that the pump thing runs for longer after a long drive, or if you have just been working the engine hard (sand driving) even if you let it idle for a while. If the engine is still cold, or you just move the car out of the driveway onto the road, the pump runs for less time.....

*edit fixed link*


Last edited by dronus, 15/Jul/2009, 9:59 pm


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Current - GU Patrol
Old - '08 T31 Platinum TL Diesel Manual - Bells and whistles.
Older - '04 T30 Ti-L Auto
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15/Jul/2009, 9:56 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29094
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


I doubt it Andrew. What's the point of designing a turbo timer for a car that already got it emoticon

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15/Jul/2009, 10:21 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
Shreks Donkey Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2009
TOTAL POSTS: 63
Reply | QUOTE
Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


quote:

dronus wrote:


I thought that the pump that runs when you shut down your engine pumps coolant (or oil) around the turbo, doing the same thing?



Uh oh, im quoting myself quoting myself,quoting myself which might seem kinky at first, but im sure its ok in most states and at least the northern territory emoticon

Doesn't this do the same thing as a turbo timer?






 No, a turbo timer simply keeps your engine idling, and you can (legally or illegally) walk away from the car, all locked up and the timer will simply switch off the engine after the pre-determined time has elapsed. You see a lot of hotted up turbo petrol cars with them all the time. The guy pulls up, locks up and walks away with the engine still running for 5 minutes and
then it automatically switches off. Nothing special occurs, it just saves you from sitting in the car waiting the 5 minutes out.

 In regards to that buzz, I have that also in my car, and have no idea what it is. It`s coming from the front of the engine, so I suspect that it does have something to do with the radiator and/or fan unit. But definitely, there is no coolant or oil being pumped through the turbo as the turbo has no "wet" parts to it. The only way to cool a turbo is to let the engine idle, which in turns cools the exhaust down that drives the turbo.
16/Jul/2009, 2:42 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
dronus Profile
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Date Registered: 08-2008
Location: Adelaide
TOTAL POSTS: 541
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


How does this work at the servo? As you cannot refuel while the engine is running, and waiting 5 minuites when you pull up would be a bad idea on a few levels (people behind getting annoyed, servo staff getting sus that you are going to drive off)

Or can you just disable it?

I'm going in for 30k service next week or so - I'll ask the techo about what they reakon.

Good idea tho, but few other things in the xtrail online shop I'll get first! emoticon

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Old - '08 T31 Platinum TL Diesel Manual - Bells and whistles.
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16/Jul/2009, 8:58 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN
 
Revhead Kev Profile
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Date Registered: 10-2006
Location: Mona Vale, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
TOTAL POSTS: 5913
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


quote:

rescue1 wrote:
You'd think in this day and age that somebody would have improved the turbo timer from the technology that was around when I built them nearly 30 years ago (when you couldn't get a cheap off the shelf timer). I'd like a timer that knew how I'd been driving and then work out how long the timer needed to run (if at all) rather than the mandatory settings that everybody seems to think is OK. Also I'm yet to see a turbo time that has the same connections as the auto run units I install in emergency vehicles that shut the motor down if somebody tries to drive off.



Very simple to do Alan.
All it would take I think is to use a temp sensor on the turbo and/or in the exhaust so that the timer would run until the temp cooled to a preset value and then turn off. The shutdown feature for when someone tried to drive off could be done by monitoring the accelerator pedal as in our Xtrails it is "fly-by-wire" so there is a voltage signal to sense.
Jaycar have turbo timer circuits and I am sure they could be modified with the above suggestions by some electronics enthusiast emoticon

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16/Jul/2009, 10:59 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
rescue1 Profile
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Date Registered: 01-2009
TOTAL POSTS: 1384
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


The drive off part is even easier than that just use the handbrake on wire... I'm amazed that the after market turbo timers haven't changed in technology in 30 years, especially considering my little smart has a cool down system to protect the motor & turbo that doesn't need to have the motor running.

The real trick these days is to have the vehicle secure and have the motor running - many vehicles won't run unless the key, with transponder is in the ignition.

Last edited by rescue1, 17/Jul/2009, 7:15 am


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17/Jul/2009, 7:14 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
Swagman Profile
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Date Registered: 05-2009
Location: Victoria, Australia
TOTAL POSTS: 16
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


Interesting thread guys.

quote:

Shreks Donkey wrote:
 There is no coolant or anything inside a turbo....if there is....i`d be worried.



From Renault's promo stuff about the M9R:
"The new car will be available with two types of Alliance engines. The 2.0 dCi Euro 4 diesel engine (M9R) is available in a choice of two power outputs, namely 110 kW or 127 kW. The engine, which has already been seen on upper-range Renault vehicles, Mégane, Nissan's Qashqai and New X-Trail and Renault Samsung Motors' QM5, features the very latest diesel engine technologies, including piezoelectric injectors, common-rail 1,600-bar fuel injection, a water-cooled variable-geometry turbo and a periodic regeneration particulate filter. The 2.0 dCi engine is available with a broad useful revolutions band, with peak torque of either 320 Nm or 360 Nm (depending on version) available from low engine speeds. The 2.0 dCi 110kW engine can be ordered for either the 4x2 or 4x4 versions and mated with either a six-speed manual gearbox or automatic transmission. The 127 kW version of the 2.0 dCi engine is mated to a six-speed manual gearbox and all-wheel drive."

quote:

Shreks Donkey wrote: I personally believe a 5 minute timer on EVERY shutdown is totally unnecessary



I tend to agree. I can't find anything in the X-trail manual suggesting that this is needed (or even recommended), and I feel that (particularly in light of the fact that the turbo on the M9R is "water-cooled") that there IS likely to be some sort of post-turn-off cooling involved already - it would be a simple matter to keep whatever water pump is providing the cooling, running for a minute or so until the turbo reached an acceptable temp.

quote:

dronus wrote:
I thought that the pump that runs when you shut down your engine pumps coolant (or oil) around the turbo, doing the same thing?



That's what I was told early on when I queried the whine noise I hear at switch off (but admitedly it WASN'T an engineer who told me this).

quote:

jalalski wrote:
I doubt it Andrew. What's the point of designing a turbo timer for a car that already got it emoticon



Certainly not trying to knock your sales Jalal, but my answer would be "so that they can sell them to mugs like us" emoticon

Sure, there is no factory fitted existing turbo timer on the Exy, and adding one is not going to harm things (except burn a little bit of extra fuel each time you switch off), but if there is ALREADY adequate post-turn-off cooling built into this engine's turbo, then the only real winners will be the people manufacturing and selling the timers.

quote:

dronus wrote:
I'm going in for 30k service next week or so - I'll ask the techo about what they reakon.



I'll be waiting to hear what they tell you. Please post!

Cheers guys,

Jeff.
----------------------
2008 T31 diesel TS manual, Twilight, tow pack, roof bars, left cargo drawer, all round protection mouldings, boot mat, floor mats, luggage blind
17/Jul/2009, 3:12 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29094
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Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


Hi Jeff,

I reckon you guys should do more reading about your diesel beasts to clearly understand the features of it as advertised by the manufacturers.

Let me break down the term used by the manufacturer in this case:

a water-cooled variable-geometry turbo

There are two clear definition parts of this trubo engine:

Variable-geometry turbo (VGT): A turbo that uses variable vanes or a sliding nozzle to alter the volume inside the exhaust housing to maximize turbo speed at low engine rpm. Also known as variable-turbine geometry (VTG).

Water-cooled turbo: A turbo assembly that incorporates channels in the *centersection to circulate engine coolant to keep the bearing assembly and related parts cool and prevent heat-soak from the exhaust turbine and housing.

*Centersection: The housing between the exhaust and intake sides of the turbo that houses the turbo shaft and contains the bearings, oiling system, and water-cooling system.

That last part about the water-cooled turbo has NOTHING to do with about cooling the turbo down after engine shut-off but it has everything to do with keeping the turbo cool while in operation and while the car is moving.

Basically what I am saying is that there is no such thing as post turn-off cooling on any diesel engine on the market to this day.

I also do not believe that a 5 minute idle is required for any diesel engine as most car manufacturers only advise a minute or two. (depending on the load on the engine) or you can simply drop the RPM range and slow down before reaching your destination to reduce that idle time.

In regards to the noise you're hearing, it could well be the Journal bearings which are a Hollow brass sleeves suspended in oil that allow the turbo shaft to spin freely inside the centersection.

I would also be VERY interested to hear what a qualified engineer would say in this regard as it is a learning curve for myself as well about diesel engines and how they operate and am sure many of us are in the same boat when it comes to newer diesel engines used in the T31 X-Trail (and Renault).



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17/Jul/2009, 4:13 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
Shreks Donkey Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2009
TOTAL POSTS: 63
Reply | QUOTE
Re: T31 Diesel Turbo Timer


quote:

jalalski wrote:



Water-cooled turbo: A turbo assembly that incorporates channels in the *centersection to circulate engine coolant to keep the bearing assembly and related parts cool and prevent heat-soak from the exhaust turbine and housing.

*Centersection: The housing between the exhaust and intake sides of the turbo that houses the turbo shaft and contains the bearings, oiling system, and water-cooling system.

That last part about the water-cooled turbo has NOTHING to do with about cooling the turbo down after engine shut-off but it has everything to do with keeping the turbo cool while in operation and while the car is moving.




 I believe what you`re saying here is also referred to as an intercooler. As you say this has nothing to do with protecting the turbo AFTER shutdown. It`s more about cooling the turbo air, which reduces the volume of air and therefore allowing cooler molecules into the cylinders to protect the engine.

17/Jul/2009, 6:26 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 


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