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Sydo Profile
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Date Registered: 09-2006
Location: Victoria, Australia
TOTAL POSTS: 36
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


quote:

Sydo wrote:

 I've ordered my own..



I do find humour in the fact that my CAI arrived today from the US when;
a) it's the hottest day of the year at 37°C.
b) it's raining.

hahaha..


edit -
I installed the system today. Although it did take me a few hours (it's hot, and I stopped for lunch), it is a pretty easy job and could be done in under an hour. Besides getting a little sunburnt and losing a 10mm Kingchrome socket somewhere in the engine bay, I had no trouble.

Road test -
It really seems to have noticeably improved performance quite a lot! But I guess without a dyno I cannot support that claim. Sound wise, I didn't notice such a great difference - but it does have a nice growl.

My system was a K&N Typhoon CAI. Got it new on ebay for about $180. (BARGAIN I tell ya!)

Last edited by Sydo, 21/Nov/2006, 1:30 pm
20/Nov/2006, 1:44 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
MrSoul85 Profile
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Date Registered: 11-2006
TOTAL POSTS: 6
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


Ok i'm a newbie... so feel free to shoot me down if i'm thought to be off the mark or completely wrong...

But i think the Pod setup isn't the best idea... well sorry i mean having a Pod filter instead of a Panel filter is excellent... and mounting it behind the front splash guard is a great idea... you'll get performance increase from the stocko filter setup... but... there is a flaw in the setup... and before beating me up hear me out...

ok lets go with the theory of turbos... Turbos use exhaust gas's to spin a turbine that operates a "fan" increaseing the air flow into the Air intake manifold right?

Well this is where the problem is with your setup Jalal... sorry mate but this is from what i can see in the photo's

having a Pod suck it's own air in is fine... works a treat and is heaps better than stock air box's... but. The motor is still sucking air through the duct. which the pod is going to enable more air to be pulled through. but the motor is still providing the suction.

To counter act this i would recommend a Pod enclosure and Air ram duct. cause with a Duct from your front bar your actually forcing air through the filter and into the air intake manifold... like a turbo minus the major boost... if that makes sense...

The other problem with putting the Pod filter behind the splash guard is the lack of "fresh" air getting to the filter. There isn't a hell of alot of flow going on in that area. some ppl have the right idea. by taking out the front fog light to allow more air... but... that also presents a problem. air will be able to enter @ 40kmph(traveling at 40kmph) but your pod won't uterlize all that air flow. due to there is nothing forcing it into the pod filter. so your pod will continue to suck air at the same rate before... you'll have an advantage due to the air flowing into the pod with be cooler. but nothing is getting forced into it.

Imagine it like this

Stock Airbox = Trying to run the marathon with a straw in your mouth.

Pod behind the Splash guard = trying to run a race with a 80kmph head wind (try sticking your head out the window at 80kmph and breathe.. it's hard)

Cold Air intake (single setup or dual setup)= Running a race with an oxygen mask pumping fresh oxygen into your mouth and nose...

Now at present Noel and i are coming up with an idea for a pod filter enclosure and ducting mods... possibly extending the snorkel from above the radiator with a custom built alloy one with Mandrel bends. and also creating a duct from below the front bar and running that up into a Pod enclosure from a XR8 (boss) motor.

Second Air Intake

And make a duct similar to the below... but it will be a Custom built Alloy one

Big Mouth Cold Air Induction

with using the XR8 pod enlosure enables a few things that benefit the X-trail...

1. due to having two duct's it will be easy to mod both ducts to allow for one to feed from the front bar, and the other to be fed from a modified radiator snorkel. meaning water crossings won't be a problem... where the front bar duct is submerged won't really be a major problem due to the radiator snorkel will still provide air to the engine. which means no airlock. performance for the period will be reduced due to only one duct will be working but who is worried about HP in that point in time?

2. Higher Air flow to the Pod enclosure which is forcing more air into the Air intake manifold which will increase the fuel air mix giving better performance. and "in theory" better fuel economy (but remember comunisum works "in theory")

3. Intake growl and also increase exhaust noise. smoother flow in + Smoother flow out = nice exhaust growl...

4. More responsive Throttle... Your throttle body controls the amount of air that your enigne sucks in.. and the ECU adjusts fuel accordingly... but by having that air being forced it. it will respond better to throttle movement. hence better accelleration.

Noel and i are still in the design process... and are looking to make a start on it sometime soon... i'm hoping to chuck his X-trail on the Dyno before and then chuck it on "Post" install and see if there is any improvement at all...

I noticed improvement when i installed a CAI onto my Falcon... so i'm hoping for the same for noel... the KW increase was marginal... only 12kw's it was worth it

i know i might have babbled on there abit so i'll try and keep it as short as possible...

The Cosimo set up i like it but i can see flaws in it... the mendrel bends and smooth flowing piping is excellent. but the pod needs and enclosure...

I'm hoping to do a tech document on the mod which will be freely avalible...

Cheers

Josh

Last edited by NPC73, 25/Nov/2006, 1:07 pm
23/Nov/2006, 11:12 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29094
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


Hi Josh,

Thanks for your very valuable feedback and it always good to see an honest opinion and debate which will helps us achieve the best.

I will make the following comments about my impression of the CAI since the day I installed it and will then make further comments about your proposal. Please don't shoot me, as I am far from being an expert in this field and only go by what I am personally experiencing and what I know about enclosed pods emoticon

OK, I have told Noel (this is also mentioned in one of my previous posts) that I felt the exy acting a bit strange or inconsistent to be more accurate, since I installed the CAI.

I have started troubleshooting this behavior and the first thing I have noticed was that the vacuum hose was far too long, so I cut that and made it fit perfectly and then re-set the ECU. This alone has improved fuel consumption and got it back to my normal levels of 10.7 to 11LT/100kms and I do drive the exy like I stole it.

OK, Now we come to the performance of the pod filter I have and the amount of air flow going through it. I think I do have another problem and that it the quality of this pod filter that has been supplied as part of the Cosmo kit. The base of the filter is a closed rubber type (to help prevent moisture or dust coming in I think) but at the same time it is restricting air-flow, as the splash guard is open from the bottom of the fender and does show HALF of the filter base.

I have ordered a K&N pod filter with an open base and I am hopeful that it will help me further and will indeed increase air-flow.

Another observation I made was the performance of the exy in hot and cold weather. Of course the exy feels more lively when it's cold and less when the weather is hot, but this is to be expected, as the pod filter is sucking in hot air from the outside (but no where as hot compared to the engine bay temperature)

Air-con on also affects performance, but I have never seen racing cars race with the air-con on LOL emoticon

This is my set-up and my problems (which may sound normal to users of the CAI set-up)

Now I come to your suggestion.

While your suggestion is feasible, I still can't get convinced that a short ram or even an enclosed pod set-up INSIDE the engine bay can give better results that a filter located outside of the car.

The short ram will reduce the distance needed for the air to travel to the throttle body indeed and will help with the suction, but at what expense? Engine bay temperature is not something I would want my engine to breath and if you do decide to enclose that pod filter inside a box that has a heat shield, then you will reduce air-flow.

Now if you decide to add an external pipe going through the standard (factory) air-box to increase air-flow, then that is of workable and it will be exactly the same set-up like an external snorkel. The down-side is the need to drill the factory air-box to fit that pipe and I always of the belief that a mod is good if it can reversed to the factory set-up. With this method, you have wrecked the factory box and will need to get a new one should the need arise to have the exy presented to the dealer for a warranty claim.

In any case, please don't let my comments discourage you and Noel from going a head with your project and I will be prepared to do a dyno comparison when you finish so we can see which set-up works best for the xtrail.

Noel has the same performance mods (except the CAI) like mine, so once you guys finish your project and do the dyno run, we will have real time results to compare.

Good luck to you both and let me know if you need any help.

Last edited by jalalski, 23/Nov/2006, 12:46 pm


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23/Nov/2006, 12:42 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
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Date Registered: 11-2006
TOTAL POSTS: 6
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


Jalal,

I understand your point of veiws and hope to make a design that will reduce all the variables that may decrease performance... it may take some tweaking... and with your permission i would like to design a intake setup with using measurements from noel's X-trail and then post it up here for comments and thoughts...

My list so far for my design brief.

1. Cost - Can't be a gold plated system..
2. Functionality - has be able to be useable on various applications ie, Offroading and conventional road use.
3. Performance - Has to provide some level of performance increase
4. Fuel Economy - Has to be able to increase the km per litre.
5. Accessable - Filter has to be easy access to be maintained
6. Asthetics - Can't look like a one armed blind man built it (sorry no offence to the blind or amputies intended)
7. Can't void Warrenty (already checking with a Nissan Mechanic mate about that one)
8. avalibility of components - Everyone must be able to access the components. (ie no using the stocking of sharron stone for a filter)
9. Durability - Parts have to last and be able to take a knocking.
10. Construction - Must be sturdy and not fall aprt when touch's water
11. Constrution - Must be able to be built but the average DIY guy
12. Must incorporate diagnostic features - Air flow meter, and other factory items.

If you can think of anything else post it up and i'll start designing...

Actually if you could also email me some photo's and problems that you are incountering and i'll take them into account when designing.

Last edited by MrSoul85, 23/Nov/2006, 1:06 pm
23/Nov/2006, 1:03 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
Naff Profile
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Date Registered: 09-2005
Location: QLD
TOTAL POSTS: 786
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


I won't begin to claim that I know anything about any of this...

But has anyone thought of the bonnet scoop as a chance to get some decent air flow onto perhaps a radiator style set-up and then into the air intake? It's just a set-up I saw in the new Toyota Hilux's which made more sense to me than anything else that I've read about so far...

Obviously I'm open to be corrected and welcome it for my own benefit!

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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29094
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


quote:

MrSoul85 wrote:
and with your permission i would like to design a intake setup with using measurements from noel's X-trail and then post it up here for comments and thoughts...



I don't have the slightest problem with that at all. Please go a head.



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23/Nov/2006, 1:19 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
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Date Registered: 11-2006
TOTAL POSTS: 6
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


quote:

Naff wrote:

I won't begin to claim that I know anything about any of this...

But has anyone thought of the bonnet scoop as a chance to get some decent air flow onto perhaps a radiator style set-up and then into the air intake? It's just a set-up I saw in the new Toyota Hilux's which made more sense to me than anything else that I've read about so far...

Obviously I'm open to be corrected and welcome it for my own benefit!



Yeah in theory that would work a treat, make a setup similar to the EL XR6 airbox using bonnet vents... but i don't want to go cutting holes im my mates bonnet in the hope that it will work... and i also want it to be easy to build if possible...

Jalal, YGM...

One thing i forgot to mention also... is i'm not a professional at this either... i have helped design CAI's for my uncles hot rod's before so i have a decent understanding...

The only real other car realated thing i have designed was a Active Exhaust setup for a mates EL falcon... and that works a treat. so i hope i have the same success with this mod


Last edited by MrSoul85, 23/Nov/2006, 1:27 pm
23/Nov/2006, 1:23 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
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Date Registered: 10-2006
Location: Mona Vale, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
TOTAL POSTS: 6109
Reply | QUOTE
Re: Air intake design & modifications


quote:

MrSoul85 wrote:

To counter act this i would recommend a Pod enclosure and Air ram duct. cause with a Duct from your front bar your actually forcing air through the filter and into the air intake manifold...

... but by having that air being forced it. it will respond better to throttle movement. hence better accelleration.

... i'm hoping to chuck his X-trail on the Dyno before and then chuck it on "Post" install and see if there is any improvement at all...



Josh,

Please if I am wrong correct me, but how will a dyno test of this setup show any improvement as the vehicle will not be moving in respect to the surrounding air so there will be no 'forced induction' caused by vehicle speed ?

---
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NPC73 Profile
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Date Registered: 12-2004
Location: Mount Isa, QLD
TOTAL POSTS: 1247
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


Some dyno places have fans that simulate air traveling to the vehicle at around 60km/hr

---
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Member ID: X-072 (Retired Administrator)
2003 X-trail, TI, Manual, (Series 1) - (with the works)
2013 Toyota Prado, Manual, Turbo Diesel - (Snorkel-K&N-Full Exhaust, 20" Low Profiles, Chrome Bullbar, HID Spots, + All the Bling!)
24/Nov/2006, 1:33 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
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Date Registered: 11-2006
TOTAL POSTS: 6
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Re: Air intake design & modifications


That is correct noel... the reason why dyno place's have fans is to simulate road use. Ie air flow over engine to save it from being cooked...

Admittidly there is some downlfall as you suggested Kev. you wouldn't get as decent power increases that would would with the X-trail on the open road pulling 100kmph... but it gives you some idea of the benefits
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