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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
quote:
bluetrail wrote:
i have just found out why the catalytic convers are falling apart. apparantly the xtrails have a problem with it not burning all of the fuel. this causes the extra air/fuel mixture to go through the catalyst and it damages them. nissan have told the dealerships that when they replace the damaged cats, they should carry out a self learn test using the nissan consult system. they believe this will rectify the problem.
Rob, this doesn't sound very promissing to me as a customer. Obviously this is a design defect and they need to put preventatives measures before receiving cars with damaged cat. converters.
I'm interested in finding-out what nissan is doing to prevent this damage from taking place.
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10/Feb/2005, 8:51 pm
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JayT
Date Registered: 12-2004
Location: Liverpool
TOTAL POSTS: 30
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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
Jalal,
Sorry mate, was very diplomatic about the whole thing.
Every time i pumped him for info he would pause & then revert back to the old line that he wont know until they get instructed from nissan.
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10/Feb/2005, 9:13 pm
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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
No worries JayT. Thats what worries me the most, they (nissan and the dealers) seem to be keeping it all hush hush for some reason, instead of just saying to the people, yes there is a problem and we gonna fix it (and gurantee the fix as well) they're just creating more concern amongst existing and potential customers with their un-porofessional approach to the matter.
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10/Feb/2005, 9:37 pm
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JayT
Date Registered: 12-2004
Location: Liverpool
TOTAL POSTS: 30
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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
Jalal,
I totally agree & would be pissed at nissan 2 for crappy attitude.
Don't let it rest, maybe take it a bit further, like the MTA or the media if u get ongoing problems post warranty because nissan have admitted the problem so they gotta do something sooner or later.
My theory is that they will only consider talking to people that have cars that r showing effects, until the recall issues r sorted out.
If its any encouragement to anyone else out there who's got dramas, we took a contractor who refused to do corrective work on his faulty workmanship around our house. we took him to the tribunal & won. so he had to pay for the cost of us to repair his work & some for stuffin us around.
As someone mentioned earlier, know ur rights.
Another thing: We have ford falcon BA gas powered vehicles for company cars at work.
Suddenly all the ones around 40000km are getting all sorts of engine /computer problems & shuts down while travelling on the highway, very dangerous.
My point, I tried to book my car into Peter Warren @ warwick farm & they told me cant do it 4 2 weeks.
I got our fleet manager to call ford national manager & suddenly because we buy lease 180 fords evry 3 years they rang me in an instant & somehow booked into get the bodgey thing serviced.
These people think they r un touchable until u actually force the issue into a zone that they r not comfortable & suddenly the shoe slipps onto the other foot.
Jayt
Hang in there & pressure them...
JAYT
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10/Feb/2005, 10:00 pm
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*Good Reading*Catalytic Converter Breakage
Some interesting reading which details this problem:
Extract starts
Catalytic Converters
Fouled plugs can cause unburned fuel to overheat the converter and melt the catalyst to a solid mass. If the O2 Sensor is not functioning properly it will give the ECU incorrect readings of exhaust gasses. The faulty sensor can cause an excessively rich or excessively lean condition. If the mixture is too rich, the catalyst can melt down. If the mixture is too lean, the converter is unable to convert the hydrocarbons into safe elements.
Oil or antifreeze entering the exhaust system can block the air passages by creating heavy carbon soot that coats the catalyst. These heavy carbon deposits will cause two problems. First, the carbon deposits prevent the catalytic converter from reducing harmful emission in the exhaust flow. And second, the carbon deposits clog the pores in the ceramic catalyst and block exhaust flow, increasing backpressure and causing heat and exhaust to back up into the engine compartment.
Your engine may actually draw burnt exhaust gasses back into the combustion chamber and dilute the efficiency of the next burn cycle. The result is a loss of power and overheated engine components.
Catalytic converters can be physically damaged as well. The catalyst contained inside a catalytic converter is made from a lightweight, thin-walled, fragile material. It is protected by a dense, insulating mat. This mat holds the catalyst in place and provides moderate protection against damage. Broken support hangers can cause the converter to bounce around and the result can be breakage of the mat. Rocks or other road debris can also hit the converter, causing the internal mat to break also. Off road vehicles often suffer this type of converter failure. Once this mat starts to break up, it will collect in the smaller passages and clog the converter.
The catalytic converter should last the lifetime of the vehicle it is installed in. if it does fail, it is most often a symptom of another problem. This problem must be identified and repaired or the new converter will fail in the same manner. You can keep it running well by keeping the ignition system in top shape and to prevent any unburnt fuel from entering the catalytic converter.
Here is an important safety reminder: Do not park your car over tall grass or piles of dry leaves. Your cars perfectly running catalytic converter gets very hot… enough to start fires!
Extract ends
And another one:
CAUSES OF CONVERTER FAILURES
Fouling, clogging, melt-down and breakage of the ceramic substrate inside a converter are common conditions that can cause problems. Plugging is usually the end result of a melt-down, which occurs because the converter gets too hot. This happens because the engine is dumping unburned fuel into the exhaust. The excess fuel lights off inside the converter and sends temperatures soaring. If it gets hot enough, the ceramic substrate that carries the catalyst melts.
The unburned fuel may be getting into the exhaust because of a bad spark plug or valve, but an overly rich air/fuel mixture is another possibility. In older carbureted engines, a heavy or misadjusted carburetor float may be the underlying cause. But on newer engines with "feedback" carburetion or electronic fuel injection, the engine may not be going into "closed loop" (the normal mode where the computer regulates the air/fuel mixture to minimize emissions).
A bad oxygen sensor or coolant sensor may be giving the computer bogus information. A sluggish or dead O2 sensor will make the computer think the exhaust is running lean, so the computer will try to compensate by making the fuel mixture rich. A coolant sensor that always indicates a cold engine will also keep the system in open loop, which means a steady diet of excess fuel. But it might not be the sensor's fault. A thermostat that's stuck open or is too cold for the application can prevent the engine from reaching its normal operating temperature. So if your converter has failed and needs to be replaced, the engine should be diagnosed for any underlying problems before the new converter is installed.
Another cause of converter clogging and contamination is excessive oil consumption. Worn valve guides or seals can allow oil to be sucked into the engine's combustion chambers. The same goes for worn or damaged rings or cylinders. Oil can form a great deal of carbon, and metals present in the oil can contaminate the catalyst. A compression check or leak-down test will tell you if the rings are leaking, while a fluttering vacuum gauge needle will help you identify worn valve guides.
Finally, I just hope that the following is not the way Nissan is going to fix this problem  LOL
http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/catalytic.html
Last edited by jalalski, 10/Feb/2005, 10:26 pm
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10/Feb/2005, 10:22 pm
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driftking1
Date Registered: 11-2004
TOTAL POSTS: 54
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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
ok....LEt's see.
The nissan QR25DE engine doesnt uses a dedicated EGR system like on modern cars. This is done to make an simpler engine layout. The EGR system on the x-trail is mainly due to VALVE overlap, wich is controlled by nissan vtc. So having that into account, valve overlap occurs at partial trhottle and above 5000rpm. The exhaust gases lower the EGT(exhaust gases temp) and make the burn cycle cleaner.
So far it seems as a good thing?NO, why? As the x-trail uses 2 cat converters, 1 precat(the one in the manifold) and a Cat at the downpipe. The precat is used there so that it heats up quickly, this way the emissions system start to work earlier, producing less polluting particles. The problem with this is that the X-trail with QR series engines, have a too sensitive throttle and a too lean mix(fewer fuel, not what most people think that the vehicle has(overfuel) and a too lean mix causes a higher EGT wich overheats the cat(sometimes the precat gets glowing hot, under hills etc.). When the cat overheats it starts to cracks and let particles free on the exhaust, when valve overlap occurs the GAS WITH THE PARTICLES is sucked back to the engine, scoring the walls of it. When the walls are scored, compression will be down a little BUT oil consumption will go up by a good margin(1l+ 100km). This will always happend on the QR if the cat breaks...
Nissan solution? replace the ecu with a reprogrammed one, that has a richer mixture, less sensitive throttle and less valve overlap. Replace the engine if the Cat converter is damaged, if it isnt they just replace the ecu(wich is bad, since the Cat has taken a lot of abuse with the old ecu).
This is the second time nissan has a big one with en gine failures, first was the ZD30 engine(on the patrol, would break pistons) and now the QR25 wich has 2 bugs. The cat convertor disintegrating and butterfly screws being sucked by the engine and scoring it.
More info about this issue can be found on http://www.b15sentra.net http://www.nissanusa.com
As you can see in b15sentra.net there is a version of the qr25 built in mexico that is used with a racing version of the sentra...it has a lot of more problems than ours(its a very bad engine over there, with a bad reputation because of the oil consumption problem) but basiclly shares the same design.
Here is a copy of my country Recall.
Reason for Recall
There is a possibility that the exhaust pipe hanger pin may catch debris from the road that could be ignited by contact with the catalytic converter and cause a fire. In addition, there is a possibility that certain engine operating conditions may cause damage to the pre-catalyst. Material from inside a damaged pre-catalyst could enter the engine and result in increased oil consumption. If the engine oil level is not checked on a periodic basis and drops below the low level, and the driver continues to operate the vehicle ignoring noticeable engine noise, engine damage may occur which could result in a fire.
What Nissan Will Do
In order to prevent these incidents from occurring, your Nissan dealer will shorten the exhaust pipe hanger pin. The dealer will also reprogram the electronic control module to prevent any future damage to the pre-catalyst. In addition, the dealer will install heat shields on certain components of the exhaust system on vehicles that do not already have them. This free service should take about three hours to complete, but your Nissan dealer may require your vehicle for a longer period of time based upon the dealer’s work schedule.The pre-catalyst will be tested to ensure it is working properly and replaced if necessary. If damage is found inside the pre-catalyst, it will be necessary to replace the engine. Nissan anticipates that few engines will need to be replaced. If the engine needs to be replaced, this also will be free of charge and will take several days. In this case, a car rental allowance is available from your Nissan dealer upon request.
NOTE: If the engine or exhaust system of your vehicle has been modified with non-Nissan parts or in a way not authorized by Nissan, you may be responsible for bringing the vehicle into a condition that allows the campaign diagnostic procedures to be followed and the repairs completed. If it is not possible to properly test the pre-catalyst and install all of the campaign parts, you will have to pay the cost to return the vehicle to an appropriate condition in order for the dealer to perform the campaign repairs. You may also have to pay to add any modifications back to your vehicle.
What You Should Do
Contact your Nissan dealer at your earliest convenience in order to arrange an appointment to have your vehicle repaired. Until then, check engine oil regularly and fill as needed. If you notice excessive engine noise or an abnormal odor from the engine compartment, you should stop driving and contact your Nissan dealer to arrange to have the vehicle towed to the dealer for repair.
Hope this helps...
How can you free yourself from the CAT problem? buy a new exhaust manifold, it will give u 15hp+ and better fuel economy...
http://www.hotshot.com http://www.jimwolftechnology.com
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11/Feb/2005, 6:13 am
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canberraxtrail
X-TRAIL ENTHUSIAST
Date Registered: 01-2005
Location: Canberra, ACT
TOTAL POSTS: 273
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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
Hey guys,
Seeing as i have bought my xtrail 2nd hand, how do i let nissan know i am the new owner (so i can get letters regarding stuff like this?)
Also, how reliable is that recall site? (in other words, do you think nissan will publicly recall this product, or stay hush about it?)
I'm heaps down about it now...  You just dont wanna hear about 2 recalls on a car you've only had for a month.
--- Matt, Canberra, X-074
2002 ST
Twilight, auto, nudge bar, tint
Car Pics: HERE |
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11/Feb/2005, 8:58 pm
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petersxtrail
X-TRAIL FANATIC
Date Registered: 02-2004
TOTAL POSTS: 339
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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
Dont be down yet, its the same car you loved yesterday. I am not downplaying the recall but it isnt the first recall of a car and it wont be the last.
Check your owners manual there is normally a coupon to fill in to advise nissan you own the car. If not give them a call.
To be honest (and I know there is concern for good reason), I found the recall notice on the Australian Products recall site (covers everything) I found it by accident looking for something else. Nissan arent going to try and keep it hush because they have already formally advised the Recall Organisation. I dont know if it normally takes a week or two to send out the letters because i have never found out about a recall from that site and I dont know anyone else that has either, so it may just take aweek or so.
While there is some good advice and information being offered from overseas members, and chances are that it will be accurate, please also remember that cars here are set up different for fuels and adr, sourcing of parts. So it may or not be exactly the problem
Now again, and I know there is concern (and quite rightly), but there is a problem, something will happen about it, that process has started, the car that may have the problem (yours) is still the same one you loved three days ago, and well if it breaks - its going to get fixed.
Thats my point of view and I have to say I am really sorry I posted the link, because I think it was too early for Nissan to tell you the normal way
Have a good weekend
Yep I know I dont have one anymore, but I still appreciate its a concern. I am really not trying to downplay it, and maybe i am sticking my neck out to say that maybe it will all happen properly, but when I see someone who has just bought himself a new car, that he was all exited about buying, and now is down, because of concern - And I feel like I am the cause as well, I would just prefer to add a positive note, Thats all.
Last edited by petersxtrail, 11/Feb/2005, 11:24 pm
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11/Feb/2005, 10:57 pm
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Re: Recall Catalytic Converter Breakage
No need to be sorry Pete, you have actually highlighted Nissan's incompetence!
I'm astonished by the fact that Nissan would inform a government party about the recall and agree for it to be displayed publicly, yet they would not update their own site with this information and even worse not inform the dealers about it.
How unprofessional is that?
To make the matter even worse, their regional office confirms the recall, yet head-office are trying to keep it hush hush.
What is the logic behind this strategic move by Nissan Australia?
What I would like to know now is there any legal rights that a nissan owners currently suffering from this problem entitled to under the current 1/2 announcement and would nissan cover this by the recall if someone shows-up at their door-step with this problem now before they finally wake-up and make a public announcement?
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11/Feb/2005, 11:33 pm
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