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lancie49 Profile
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Date Registered: 01-2007
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Oz
TOTAL POSTS: 109
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Again, thanks for all your efforts on this particular concern Jalal.
I'm starting to feel a little more comfortable now.

---
Lance.....X491
Gotta Pop-Top
Now I've got an EXy
2005 ST II White Auto.
30/Jan/2007, 8:23 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
DOMBenedict Profile
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Date Registered: 03-2005
TOTAL POSTS: 62
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


I was having difficulty understanding why, in this era of globalisation and off-shoring of everything, Nissan would have two places where engines were made. So naturally, I consulted Professor Google...

There's an interesting Wikipedia article, which refers only to the American engine plant at Decherd,TN see Wikipedia QR Engine . But, Prof Google also delivered a indirect reference (NTT Data news release) to the Yokahama (Tokyo, Japan) plant being a source of QR engines.

Maybe Nissan could contribute something to Wikipedia with more about how one engine plant produces duds, and the other one apparently does not. Or maybe they'd like to sick their lawyers onto Wikipedia with the hope of suppressing the negative publicity.

It would be interesting to know whether occasionally engines from the dud plant might have been shipped in Australian x-trails (e.g. to absorb overproduction from the US). If that has happened, you would hope the engine numbers identify the plant (as part of the code or numeric sequence).

Would Nissan be prepared to give clearer information about the engine numbers and source plants for the engines ? Can they assure us that no dud-plant engines have been used in Australian X-trails ?

If Nissan won't help with this, perhaps debdorro and others affected by this could post their engine numbers to this thread, and we can look for a pattern...

Cheers

DOM
31/Jan/2007, 9:50 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29098
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


quote:

DOMBenedict wrote:

It would be interesting to know whether occasionally engines from the dud plant might have been shipped in Australian x-trails (e.g. to absorb overproduction from the US). If that has happened, you would hope the engine numbers identify the plant (as part of the code or numeric sequence).




This is very possible Dom. Japan may have been running behind in their production plant when assembling the xtrails and they may have well used the US plant to catch-up on the demand and used the US manufactured engines some of which may have found their way here.

Although Nissan clearly claims that the root cause of this fault is different between one engine and the other.

---

31/Jan/2007, 10:03 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
Big Rig Profile
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Date Registered: 07-2006
Location: Daisy Hill Qld
TOTAL POSTS: 49
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posticon Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Hey all

I'm still kinda miss understanding wat is happening ... kinda have an idea, am kinda getting abit worried about 2000km after my 70 000km service my exy started to run abit rough, took it out to my dealer told me there was nothing wrong,knowing my own car i took my car to Future Service Centres, they replaced all spark plugs runs fine noe But the spark plug gap on the 3rd cylinder was almost closed. Should i be Worried??? Please Help..

Also can anyone recomend a Good Dealer in Brisbane as the Workshop foreman at my local dealer is an arragont Pig.

---
Justin

X-386(c)

Black 2003 (series 1) ST-R Manual, Hyper Roof Rails, X-Trail Brake Decal, Dash Mat, X-Trail Floor Mats , Nudge Bar, Alloys, Tow Bar.
8/Mar/2007, 11:13 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29098
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Justin,

Running rough is not one of the symptoms of this defect. You should notice complete loss of power if it was the butterfly screws.

As for the closed gap of the spark plug, did the dealer tell you what caused this? It's not normal.

P.S. Please post your question about Brisbane dealers in the "Servicing Thread"

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8/Mar/2007, 11:25 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
Big Rig Profile
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Date Registered: 07-2006
Location: Daisy Hill Qld
TOTAL POSTS: 49
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Thaks for clearing that up for me Jalal, no my car still has full power emoticon as for the spark plug it appears to have been dropped. As i haven't had them out my self i can only blame dodgey mechanics.

Cheers


---
Justin

X-386(c)

Black 2003 (series 1) ST-R Manual, Hyper Roof Rails, X-Trail Brake Decal, Dash Mat, X-Trail Floor Mats , Nudge Bar, Alloys, Tow Bar.
10/Mar/2007, 3:46 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29098
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


OK Guys,

I don't want to alarm anyone about this "potential" problem but after hearing what happened to Brett, I have done a bit more research into this and I thought that we all need to be aware of it and try our best to avoid it happening to us.

Let me first start by describing what the problem actually is with these intake butterfly screws and where they actually are.

The Problem

The QR25DE Engine has 4 butterflies in the intake manifold going to the engine, each one of those butterflies has TWO small screws (8 in total) (see pic below)

Image

NONE of these 8 screws have loctite and with time and engine movement and vibration, these screws become loose! This doesn't happen to all engines, but it is highly related to the way the car is driven, with off-road and heavy foot type of driving being the most probable cause for these screws to go loose.

There seems to be the trend of this problem happening to the Sentra Spec V which gets driven very hard and in high RPMs (above 5000RPM when these butterflies open to let more air into the engine) in most cases and with our xtrails where it is either driven hard or spends time off-road a lot.

The problem as previously described happens when one (or more) of these butterfly screws comes loose and falls inside the manifold and gets sucked inside the engine. This will almost always guarantee piston damage and consequently engine failure!!

Image Image

The Symptoms

How can you tell that your exy is having this problem or what looks like it maybe the loose butterfly screws problem?

1. You will notice immediate engine hesitation.
2. You will notice immediate loss of power.
3. Your engine will misfire.
4. If all of the above signs are not enough or you didn't pay attention to them, then you will notice that your exy will consume more oil than usual.

Finally and the most dreaded sign is when you remove one of the spark plugs, only to find the gap in one of them (or more) has been reduced to ZERO!

All of the above are sure signs of a bigger problem to come.

What to do?

1. Stop driving your exy immediately!!
2. Contact your nearest local dealer and book a service appointment.
3. Arrange for a flat bed tow-truck and take the exy to your dealer.
4. Explain to the dealer your suspicions that it may be the loose butterfly screws and show them the damaged spark plug.
5. Insist they do the check-up by opening the intake manifold and inspecting ALL EIGHT BUTTERFLY SCREWS.
6. Advise them to let you know if any of these screws was missing.
7. If one of the screws was missing, you're most likely will need an Engine Replacement as the damage caused to the pistons and the cylinders is far too great to repair.
8. This is where you need to refer to the earlier assurance of support offered to us (the forum) by Nissan Australia and INSIST that this whole exercise is to be covered by Nissan Australia Warranty, even if you're out of warranty.

To put it in simple terms, we (xtrail owners upto and including 2005 models) all have a time bomb in our engines that could go off at any time (being these 8 small screws) and NONE of them have loctite when Nissan assembled our engines (be it in Japan manufacturing plant or anywhere else)

The fix is VERY simple but very time consuming (over an hour labor), as it involves opening and remove the intake manifold to gain access to these screws and apply loctite to them and then re-sealing everything, changing the gasket and re-setting everything (this may include a pressure test as well)

This could well be the reason we have not seen an official recall for this just yet, but until that happens, all of us need to be aware of the potential problem that could happen to any of our xtrails and what needs to be done if it does indeed happen.

If you'd rather implement a preventative measure yourself BEFORE this problem happens, then you can open the intake manifold yourself (see the diagram below of how to remove the intake manifold) and apply the loctite to all 8 screws. This will guarantee that you won't have this problem but it still needs to be double-checked in 60,000kms or so.

Image

P.S. Even though my own xtrail had this overseas recall carried-out by the dealer with agreement from Nissan, I can never be sure that it won't happen again and I will most likely open the intake manifold at one stage and apply the loctite again.


Last edited by jalalski, 9/Apr/2007, 3:04 pm


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8/Apr/2007, 11:09 am Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
RomanSA Profile
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Date Registered: 12-2006
TOTAL POSTS: 26
Reply | QUOTE
Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Jalal, can you clarify, which models does this apply to, just those built up to 2005 when the problem was identified and brought to Nissans attention?

Roman

---
'06 ST-S 5 sp Manual
Member X494
9/Apr/2007, 1:23 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29098
Reply | QUOTE
Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Hi Roman,

ALL Models up to and including 2005 built are affected by this (Series I and II) as it seems Nissan did NOT apply loctite to ANY QR25DE engine that was built, no matter where it was assembled!

I have just found some information which seems to suggested that Nissan has changed the design of the butterfly screws in the 2006 models and they claim that it is no longer an issue on the newer models.

Here is a pic showing the butterfly of a 2006 QR25DE engine.

Image

I still can't see where the loctite is, but at least they have added a washer to the screws in the butterfly.

The better option would have been to pop-rivet them all I think!

Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to create chaos amongst existing and future owners of the great exy, but if all of us sat back and waited until this problem actually took place and happened to our xtrail, then Nissan would never get the chance to see the magnitude and the extent of the issue we have.

Personally and because I love my xtrail and try to do anything to make it run smooth for the longest possible time, I would rather ask the dealer/Nissan to perform the preventative measure and apply loctite to these damn screws, rather than waiting for the disaster to happen and wait until they source a new engine and all the bureaucracy associated with approving such a claim.

Just remember, as an owner who has just invested in over 30 grand on a new car, you have the full right to be concerned about any possible defects it MAY have. If it doesn't have any problems, well, you will be driving around happily and comfortably for many miles to come and sleep better at night.

Last edited by jalalski, 9/Apr/2007, 2:58 pm


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9/Apr/2007, 1:50 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
BlackThunda Profile
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Date Registered: 09-2005
Location: Wishart Queensland
TOTAL POSTS: 1567
Reply | QUOTE
Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Jalal,

As a preventative measure, these should be loctited - but would this be covered by warranty or would this be a matter of 'you want it, you pay for it', don't come and see us unless it happens to come loose and then we can talk about it?

Any idea if this would be a particularly costly repair job if we had to pay for it?

---
Jamie & Vicky - X112(c)

(old) Black 2005, Auto ST-X, (Series 2)
(new) 2011 Series 4 T31 T1 (CVT Auto) Diamond Black
(2nd car) 92 Pajero (old but tuff) Red

Black Thunda is the name, splashin' around is the game!
9/Apr/2007, 4:18 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 


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