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RichTNorway Profile
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Date Registered: 04-2011
TOTAL POSTS: 17
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Engine Cutting out - idles fine


Hi,

So I am hoping you guys can help me out here, I have had my Xtrail(T30) for 3 yrs, its a 2005 2.0 Sport with the QR20DE engine. Its been 100% reliable, and completely brilliant at transporting 3 kids and the rest of a family around. However its now let me down with a very confusing/difficult problem. I will try to explain and give as much information as possible in this post. But do ask anything no matter outlandish..

So x trail is fine, then we changed from using it for the daily kids, work run to our other car, purely because the other car has an engine heater, and cabin heatiing. The xtrail was getting steamed up on the -15C mornings, well steam more like frozen on the inside! So then it was used about once a week for my weekly run to Oslo, a 100km trip.

So one morning when things are starting to get a little warmer it stalled when I pulled out of the drive, thought nothing of it, it cold; its not been used for a week. Anyhow after about 10 mins, it does it again, but this time I am travelling at speed so the momentum restarts the engine, (never been any problem restart, starts first time no problem). So I return back home. Leave it an hour then take it out for another trip no problem.

I did not think anything more, so a couple of days goes past I jump in the xtrail to go to oslo again, and this time it gets 5 mins in, and stalls, this time it took some restarting. So I managed to park it somewhere safe called a pick up truck, got it dropped off at my local non nissan mechanic. It did the same with him, cut just like turning the ignition on and off really quickly. But no error codes, nothing. Whilst he had it I checked your forum and came up with the crankshaft and camshaft sensors, went back to him. he said and quite rightly I think they would give an error code.

So I took it to the nissan dealer, they checked it out, came back with the crank and cam shaft sensors, no problem, got new ones changed them(thanks to another member for his posts on hows to).

No change the same thing, so to get to the exact symptoms. Driving along engine cuts for a split seconds restarts because the car momentum restarts it, this may happen once, twice its completely random.

So more testing, this time using the xtrail service manual checking earth connections, plugs and sockets to cam/crank and all the other sensors on the engine.

Then the problem became worse..

So the current state is:


It will start up easily, and it will respond and rev to accelerator input, until it warms up. Then if you keep it reving at say 2000rpm, it will start to stumple, then cut out, if you release the accelerator pedal at that time, the rev counter will drop to 0, and heres the other strange thing.. the temp gauge drops as well. If you try to press the accelerator pedal when its at idle it will die/cut out, but if you release the pedal it will start back up again. if I keep the accelerator pressed it will not start up again, the temp gauge and the fuel pump relay will respond proportionally to the accelerator pedal input. i.e. engine stalls, keep pressing the gas pedal you can here the fuel pump relay clicking on and off as if the ecu does not know the engine has stopped, so this points to the crank sensor, check the wiring, put an osilloscope on the crank sensor out put it looks like it should.

So whilst in wamup mode, its fine, once its warmed up I know the ecu using more sensor inputs to make the timing, fuel pulse etc decision, but it seems like on any gas pedal input it stalls out..

Any ideas?

PS: I have done more checks but I think this post is long enough!!
8/Apr/2011, 7:33 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 28941
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Re:


Have they checked the throttle position sensor?

---

8/Apr/2011, 9:09 am Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
Revhead Kev Profile
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Date Registered: 10-2006
Location: Mona Vale, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
TOTAL POSTS: 5249
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


quote:

RichTNorway wrote:
came back with the crank and cam shaft sensors, no problem, got new ones changed them(thanks to another member for his posts on hows to)



So if you followed this procedure then I assume you would have removed the Mass Air Flow meter and the intake piping to the throttle body to gain better access to the crank position sensor.

To me the problem seems like the engine is starving of air when warm. This could be from a throttle butterfly closing too much on idle. When warming up, the throttle is open more for a higher rpm and slowly closes as the engine temp increases to operating temp.

Maybe the throttle butterfly has been manually moved at some time.
My suggestion is to do an Idle Air relearn which also requires the throttle released and throttle pressed relearn to both be done. Search for the procedure on the forums and follow the sequence.

Please let us know the results.

---
Kev X450(c) T30 Guru
03 Titanium Ti T30 Series 1 **MODIFIED**
My Blog
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8/Apr/2011, 11:55 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
RichTNorway Profile
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Date Registered: 04-2011
TOTAL POSTS: 17
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


Hi,

After I put it all back together, I did the 3 setups for the idle, i.e. throttle closed position, accelerator position learning, and the idle air volume learning. They all work seemed to work okay, espcially the idle air volumn learning which take some practice.

But the throttle closed position learning one, it says in the esm to turn ignition on, then off wait 10 seconds and listen for the throttle motor, I can not hear this, does anyone know if its that audiable, or do you have to be right up close to the throttle body?

Rich
8/Apr/2011, 7:43 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
RichTNorway Profile
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Date Registered: 04-2011
TOTAL POSTS: 17
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


Hi,

I have just done the throttle position closed procedure, and it would appear that the throttle valve is not moving, after turning the ignition off, so now I will check the connections from the throttle body back to the ecm.

Thanks for your help! it looks like it may of got me on the right track!!

I will update it later when I have checked out the wiring etc.

Rich
9/Apr/2011, 8:41 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
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Date Registered: 04-2011
TOTAL POSTS: 17
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


Hi again, sorry for not replying sooner, I have only just managed to take a look(4hrs of).

I have checked out the wiring and voltages to the throttle body and they all check out, i.e. the same as what is in the electronic service manual. So another dead end..

I have got hold of a much better diagnostic tool, and plugging this in threw up something odd.

When I first plugged it in it reported the battery voltage to be circa 10-11v, when I had a voltmeter across the battery it showed normal [sign in to see URL] when the engine was running. But when the engine was not running the voltage was low circa 11v. So I purchased a new battery this one shows 13v. So thats all okay, but the diag tools still shows the battery voltage (that the ecu is reading) is still below spec 10-12v, I was expecting [sign in to see URL]. Now here is the strange part, when I managed to get the engine to run long enough usually when its still cold, but if you keep it reving at 2000rpm, it will start to stumble and cut out. When this happened the voltage reported by the diag tool was goes all over the place lowest I saw was 7v - highest 16v, at the same time I was measuring the voltage on the battery and it never moved from [sign in to see URL].

So I investgated further, and started to look at the start of the power supply the ECM relay, this relay switches two circuits, one to the ecu, i assume to tell the ecu to energise systems, then the other part of the relay looks like it only switches on the EC-IGNSYS which is the coils, the voltage on there is the same as reported by the ecu diag tool, and again goes bad when the car starts to cut out. The input 6 and the output read the same (below battery voltage when the engine is running) According to the electronic service manual pin 7 of the relay goes out to the coils, i checked the voltage on pin 2 of the condenser [sign in to see URL]... so something has to be a miss surely. Does anyone have any advice.

Thanks in advance,
Rich
19/Apr/2011, 5:54 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
Translucidus Profile
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Date Registered: 05-2010
Location: Adelaide
TOTAL POSTS: 599
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


Suggestion:

Check the Earthing points to the body - unbolt them and look for corrosion. Make sure clean and then tighten up.

---
2007 X-Trail T31 ST-L

Xy going vertical at Bendleby Station . . .

19/Apr/2011, 12:48 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
RichTNorway Profile
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Date Registered: 04-2011
TOTAL POSTS: 17
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


Hi,

That was my first thought as well so I took them all off, checked cleaned them all. But none of them were even slightly dirty, the same with all connectors as well.

I am not sure if this voltage I am seeing is just normal, and expected. But I just cannot see that it would be normal, since I don't see how any electronic based parts can deal with a non stable voltage.

Rich
20/Apr/2011, 6:00 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
Translucidus Profile
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Date Registered: 05-2010
Location: Adelaide
TOTAL POSTS: 599
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


Ooops - Ignore - you have an oscilloscope and know what you are doing.

I posted:
Remember - many wires in the X-Trail are Computer Network lines carrying digital data that you can't measure correctly without an oscilloscope.

ie You can't measure a rapidly changing 5 volt square wave of varying frequency with a multimeter.

Last edited by Translucidus, 20/Apr/2011, 4:26 pm


---
2007 X-Trail T31 ST-L

Xy going vertical at Bendleby Station . . .

20/Apr/2011, 4:21 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
Revhead Kev Profile
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Date Registered: 10-2006
Location: Mona Vale, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
TOTAL POSTS: 5249
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Re: Engine Cutting out - idles fine


The only time I had a car cut-out when accelerating but started and idled normal, it had an air leak in the carburetor gasket (old car about 20 yrs ago). Every time I put my foot too hard on the accelerator peddal it would die, unless I pumped the peddal to get it to accelerate (and of course it used a lot more petrol).

Have you tried looking for air leaks in the manifold from the MAF through to the intake manifold ?

---
Kev X450(c) T30 Guru
03 Titanium Ti T30 Series 1 **MODIFIED**
My Blog
My CarPC Worklog
21/Apr/2011, 10:33 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 


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