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GeoffM Profile
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Date Registered: 07-2004
Location: Sydney
TOTAL POSTS: 258
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pre-cat removal ?


I was reading in another forum of an overseas Nissan sedan which has the same motor as the xtrail...

Their solution to the precat failure is to apply a solid screwdriver to the pre-cat, break it up and remove it, and leave the manifold as is (minus pre-cat). The basis for this is that the other cat further down will do enough "catalytic converting" to enable the motor to pass an emissions test.

Has anyone done that with an xtrail in Australia, and does it pass emissions testing ?

Admin Edit: Link removed due to an illegal modification.

Last edited by jalalski, 7/Nov/2008, 5:01 pm


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7/Nov/2008, 4:49 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message Blog
 
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 28983
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


Sorry Geoff,

Can't have that on our forum here because what you're suggesting is highly illegal and against the emission regulations of Australia (as well as ADR)

I have seen that before and some xtrailers in other countries are removing the cat all together when fitting an aftermarket exhaust system, which will indeed give more power by having less restrictions in the exhaust system but at a very high cost to the environment and against all emission control regulations.

Your exy will fail that and can not be registered/sold.

P.S. Your xtrail has only one cat. converter, unlike the 2006 and up models and even with keeping one cat converter and removing the other (under the car), the newer models from 2006 and up will still fail the tougher emission tests which was introduced at the start of 2006 as far as I can remember (EURO3) and the got upgraded to EURO4 and EURO5 in January 2007 (details ]HERE)

Last edited by jalalski, 7/Nov/2008, 5:11 pm


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7/Nov/2008, 5:00 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
basshead Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: Panania, Sydney
TOTAL POSTS: 2852
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


The purpose of the pre-cat which is part of the factory extractors is that being so close to the engine, it heats up alot quicker than the one half-way along the exhaust, under the car, and thus works properly alot quicker as it needs to get up to temperature to function correctly (or so my understanding of them is). By removing the pre-cat, you'd only be relying on the secondary cat, and as it's further away fro the engine, will take alot longer to get to operating temperature, and thus not comply with the increasinly more-stringent regulations. It was OK on older cars to have just the one cat under the car as the regulations back then weren't as tight. I think my 1985 corolla didn't even have a cat (or maybe it got removed when I fitted the cheap $200 sports exhaust emoticon ). I know my Escort panelvan didn't have one - it ran on "super" which was pre-unleaded days, which is when I think the cat's became mandatory (to comply with the use of unleaded fuel).

Jalal is of course correct in his instruction to inform you not to proceed with such a modification, but at the end of the day, it's your car, and none of us can stop you from modifying it illegally; just keep in mind that there could be ramifications later on down the track when it comes to selling/trading-in or re-registering - it wouldn't surprise me if the authorities aren't already considering implementing mandatory emissions inspections for rego (like they do with brake tests), just to try and get all the older smoke-machine cars off the road (you know the ones I'm talking about, that spew smoke and fumes that fill the streets as they drive down them!). Obviously they would have to do the specific test for particular vehicles based on their manufacturing date/emissions compliance.


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Rich. X-013(c)
'04 S2 ST Auto. Nudge_roofracks_tow_tints_Lightforce_GME_YokoGeoA/T-S_TBS_bashplate_50mm-spacer-lift
Click here to see >300MB of photos and videos All For His Glory.
7/Nov/2008, 9:11 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN Yahoo Blog
 
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 28983
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


Rich,

All X-Trails from 2001 to late 2005 have ONE cat. converter only and it was in compliance with the older emission regulations.

In 2006 and when Nissan launched the new less powered xtrail ST-S, it came with TWO cat. converters, the one that is part of the manifold and another cat. located under the car. This of course required that 2 oxygen sensors be used (2001 to 2005 models have only one O2 sensor)

The reason Australia imported the less powered xtrail was in direct compliance with the newer emission standards across the world. In fact some countries never sold/imported the older version of the xtrail because they considered them non-compliant with their emission regulations and only started to import them from 2005 onwards.

If authorities will introduce emission compliance testing as part of rego renewals now, it means that cars will be tested to comply with an emission standard that was applicable to that car depending on the year of manufacturing, so this means that Geoff's 2002 xtrail will be tested and should comply with the EURO2 (or EURO3) emission standards and they can not enforce EURO4 and EURO5 standards on older cars.

Regardless of that, removing the only cat. in the car will surely result in failure of being compliant even with an older emission regulation, let alone the new one.

And nope, we can't stop anyone from modifying their car illegally, but I can and will stop them from sharing it publicly on our forum which does not condone this type of illegal modification and am positive that Geoff will not do that.

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7/Nov/2008, 10:12 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
NissanTaylor Profile
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Date Registered: 06-2008
Location: Canberra, ACT
TOTAL POSTS: 244
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


i heard that its like $15,000 dollar fine if your caught doing it or with it done to your car and its more like $50,000 for any company that does this or doesnt report it. its easy to test a cat is working without an exhast gas analyser, if you have an infared themometer (like a laser pointer but with a screen and tells you the temp of the surface the laser projects on too) point it before and after the cat and the temp on the exit side of the cat should be much hotter due to the chemical reactions going on it the cat (if the cat is working and hasnt had a melt down like on the cat recall). i have seen the RTA do this check on a few imports on the side of the road.
im not sure but i think the cat in the exy manifold is a 2way cat and on the later models a reducation cat is added underneath. a 2 way cat is made with platinium and paladium coating in the ceramic monolith with turns hydrocarbons or unburnt fuel into H2O and CO2 and turns Oxygen and carbon monoxide CO into carbon dioxide CO2. the reducation cat contains rodium and it converts the NOx or oxides of nitrogen (not nitrogen oxide). a 3way cat is all-in-one.
so basically if you mess with your cat you'll have a big bill if your caught and a big black mark up the back of your car from the exhaust

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X-897
My Old Platium 07 STS Xtreme - Click Here to check out my mods and pics
Now own a Black C34 Nissan Stagea RS4-S
10/Nov/2008, 2:59 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
basshead Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: Panania, Sydney
TOTAL POSTS: 2852
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


quote:

NissanTaylor wrote:

so basically if you mess with your cat you'll have a big bill if your caught and a big black mark up the back of your car from the exhaust



Probably getting a little off-topic... I have seen many modified/imported cars with black dust all around the exhaust, and the entire back of many poorly-maintained cars (possibly diesels) covered in black dust. I just assumed it was from having a rich fuel mixture, and the unburnt fuel deposits around the exhaust pipe (or entire back of the car if it's really bad). My previous car (modified pulsar) only ever got black around the exhaust pipe tip when I used Shell Optimax. As far as I knew the catalytic converter was OK, but then it did have a very strong "rotten egg" smell. I thought that was indication that the catalytic converter was working - but dosn't sulfur smell like rotten egg?


Are you implying that the cause of the blackness is a gutted or damaged catalytic coverter? Could an overly-rich fuel mixture also cause it?

Obviously not having any catalytic converter is going to be potentially hazardardous for anyone following (especially in a tunnel). I've also heard an overly-rich fuel mixture can also prematurely damage catalytic converters... How much life span would one expect to have, and how much would it be shortened by, by running rich fuel? It's probably worth mentioning that the fuel mixture is rich during engine warm-up time, which is also when the catalytic converter isn't working as it's not up to it's operating temperature.

(Not all these questions are intended for Taylor; anyone feel free to comment)


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Rich. X-013(c)
'04 S2 ST Auto. Nudge_roofracks_tow_tints_Lightforce_GME_YokoGeoA/T-S_TBS_bashplate_50mm-spacer-lift
Click here to see >300MB of photos and videos All For His Glory.
10/Nov/2008, 8:12 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN Yahoo Blog
 
NissanTaylor Profile
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Date Registered: 06-2008
Location: Canberra, ACT
TOTAL POSTS: 244
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


well if you gut your cat there is nothing to convert the hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel) in to H2o so you get a black smoke stain on your bumper, your right with cars running rich does the same thing. you see alot of skylines etc with it because they up the boost without getting it tuned on a dyno though the rev range (like jalals haltech miniceptor is tuned) so when they are on high boost the cpu is just poring lots of fuel in and hoping it works out (just like with converting to LPG when you up the boost you put a colder plug in to ensure your getting a complete burn). also in higher KMs turbo cars the oil seals in the turbo housing weep oil into the compressor and turbine housings so you have oil getting boosted into your engine and oil getting pushed out the dump pipe on the turbo and theres only so much a cat can do with all that smokey stuff, the oil tends to soak in to the ceramic monolith so its usless. another thing ive seen is people with hotted up pulsars and pintara trx's etc is those chips off ebay (15+hp gain blah blah) basically its a resistor in most cases, and you bridge your air flow meter or cpu with it and it tells your cpu that the air going in to your engine is ice cold like -40c so the cpu richens up the mixture like on a cold start, this leads to a CAT's death because in poorly maintained cars the plugs cant handle burning all that fuel and you dont get 100% burn so you end up with raw fuel going into you exhaust and hitting the nice hot cat and igniting and demolishing it. pretty much like the xtrail cat recall, we had to check if the cat was ok and then reprogram the ecu because they were over fuelling (thats what nissan told us in the workshop) sometimes the top of the cat had been melted and turned to dust so bad that the car could bearly breathe and when people were stomping their foot to the floor and backing off quickly, because of the location of the cat it was sucking up powdery sand like bits of ceramic monolith in to the combustion chamber and chewing the bores to bits. in a few cases we needed to replace the block.
i have a nice big chunk of a ceramic monolith out of a transporter sitting in my tool box if any one wants me to take a pic of it. basically the car drove with a miss fire for sometime and when i fixed the missfire the car wouldnt rev properly and we found that the cat had been taking a pounding with the raw fuel igniting. replaced the cat, went like a dream. also ive been told that over a long period of time a cat will eventually stop working because the semi precious metal coating wears off the ceramic and doesnt change the chemicals anymore, not sure if that is true though. i wonder if people switch to metal cats on performance stuff because they can handle raw fuel say from a misfire, igniting in the cat?

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X-897
My Old Platium 07 STS Xtreme - Click Here to check out my mods and pics
Now own a Black C34 Nissan Stagea RS4-S
20/Nov/2008, 11:55 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
GeoffM Profile
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Date Registered: 07-2004
Location: Sydney
TOTAL POSTS: 258
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


quote:

NissanTaylor wrote:

..... pretty much like the xtrail cat recall, we had to check if the cat was ok and then reprogram the ecu because they were over fuelling (thats what nissan told us in the workshop) sometimes the top of the cat had been melted and turned to dust so bad that the car could bearly breathe and when people were stomping their foot to the floor and backing off quickly, because of the location of the cat it was sucking up powdery sand like bits of ceramic monolith in to the combustion chamber and chewing the bores to bits. in a few cases we needed to replace the block.



Did you have any instances where Nissan did the fix out of warranty ?



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Dave4x4 Profile
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Date Registered: 08-2005
Location: NEWCASTLE
TOTAL POSTS: 685
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


Just thought I would add that pre 86 cars that run on unleaded have no catalytic converter.
Just a statement for all

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(Dave Newcastle 2004 ST
ID: X211

25/Nov/2008, 12:36 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 28983
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Re: pre-cat removal ?


Yeah Dave, they didn't give a damn about the environment back then, just like they used to use asbestos everywhere emoticon

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